WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:26.970 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Hello folks, welcome to this last session of our very interesting series on international development and procurement issues in international development. We've been very privileged to have a great panel this week, as we worked through various issues. In the first day, we had an overview of issues. We also talked about developments in Ansitral, the UN Commission on International Trade Law, Model Procurement Law. 2 00:00:26.970 --> 00:00:51.960 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: And on the second day, we talked about contract administration issues in international development, and I thought that was a… that was a… Vinay did a terrific job, Vinay Sharma did a terrific job outlining issues there. And this on… and Jean-Jacques Verdeaux, who's with us today, discussed what's happening at the World Bank. That was a fascinating overview of important developments at the World Bank. And we're also joined then by Madan 3 00:00:51.960 --> 00:01:14.490 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Laurentis, who talked about some key issues in terms of enhancing procurement at the World Bank. Now, on this third day, the third and last day, we're going to be talking about anti-corruption issues. We're going to start with Professor Sope Williams, whom I'm very proud to note is my newest colleague in our program at George Washington University Law School. She's been a colleague for 4 00:01:14.750 --> 00:01:26.490 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: many, many years, and she is… she is much younger than I am, but she has done a wonderful job over the years, and she's been really a very important colleague for us. 5 00:01:26.490 --> 00:01:39.900 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: In terms of having an ongoing discussion about important issues in anti-corruption. We'll be talking… she'll be talking about some important developments, and Prabhat will also be talking about some important developments in anti-corruption in development. 6 00:01:39.900 --> 00:02:02.580 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: One of the important interchanges that Sope and I have had over the years is how we deal with anti-corruption and procurement from different normative places. If we, for example, if we rely very heavily on a mechanical theory, which we'll be talking about, like the principal-agent theory, does that adequately capture what the true anti-corruption imperatives are? 7 00:02:02.580 --> 00:02:23.590 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: in a given culture or a given nation. And I've included… I've added to the materials on the program website, with the program, background material literature that Sope's done and others have done on these important issues, and I recommend those to you if you want to look at the program website. I'll be putting that citation up in just a second. 8 00:02:25.340 --> 00:02:31.879 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: As before, the videos, and the videos in the first two days are already up, the materials from the first two days are already up. 9 00:02:31.880 --> 00:02:54.590 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Public Procurementinternational.com. The videos are also going to be in the GW Law Government Procurement Law YouTube page, and the chat is also the chat from the first two days, which includes a lot of research resources, is available there on the Public Procurement International website, if you like. Today, we have speakers from many different areas and many different functions. 10 00:02:54.980 --> 00:02:59.970 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Should stress that any statements that they make today are in their personal capacity. 11 00:03:00.380 --> 00:03:07.570 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: We've had over 450 registrants, almost 500 now, from around the world, from many, many different countries. 12 00:03:07.570 --> 00:03:31.079 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: we… these are… these webinars are an important opportunity to pull together the international procurement community and to reaffirm what's really important, which is to use procurement as a means of achieving the best possible outcomes for the men, women, and children of the countries that are affected. So it's a real privilege for us to be able to do these webinars and bring everyone together. 13 00:03:31.690 --> 00:03:47.230 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: As I said, this is the third of three sessions, and we've, we have with us Shelby Williams and Prabhat Garg. I'm going to be introducing them individually as we go through, and I'm very grateful that they could join us today. 14 00:03:47.480 --> 00:03:52.850 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Benedetta Audio is also joining me as a co-moderator. Benedetta, would you like to say a few words? 15 00:03:53.060 --> 00:04:04.479 Benedetta Audia: Sure, good morning, good afternoon, everyone, and welcome back for the final session on our series of our series on International Development Procurement. 16 00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:20.420 Benedetta Audia: So, over the past two sessions, we've heard from colleagues at UNDP, the World Bank, and UNC Charl, and if there is one thread running through all of it, it is this. Procurement rules only matter if they hold under pressure. 17 00:04:20.420 --> 00:04:29.260 Benedetta Audia: Today, we turn to the pressure that matters most, and that is corruption, and that is why this closing session matters. We spent 18 00:04:29.260 --> 00:04:42.890 Benedetta Audia: two sessions on how the system is supposed to work. Today, we ask what happens when it does not, and what tools, legal, institutional, and technological actually, catch it in time. 19 00:04:43.060 --> 00:04:44.300 Benedetta Audia: Thank you, Chris. 20 00:04:44.700 --> 00:04:55.239 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Thank you, Benedetta. So, our first speaker today will be Shopee Williams. She's joining the faculty of George Washington University Law School in next month. We're just… we're delighted that we can have her. She's, she's… 21 00:04:55.250 --> 00:05:07.759 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: She's just a luminary internationally, and it's a wonderful thing for our program. She's a professor of public Procurement law, Procurement law consultant, and also the deputy director of the African Procurement Law Unit at Stellenbach University. 22 00:05:07.760 --> 00:05:18.700 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: She's an expert in public procurement law and policy in Africa, procurement of the multilateral development banks, gender-responsive procurement, emergency contracting, sustainable public procurement, and anti-corruption law. 23 00:05:18.700 --> 00:05:39.859 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: She's developed anti-corruption courses for UNODC and the UN Virtual School, and served as an academic member of the World Bank's Procurement Technical Advisory Group. She's an editor of four international journals and a vice chair of the Anti-Corruption committee of the International Bar Association. She developed and teaches in the LLM and PG DIP program. 24 00:05:39.860 --> 00:05:46.969 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: in public Procurement Regulation and Policy at Stellenbosch University. She has an LLM with distinction from the London School of Economics. 25 00:05:46.970 --> 00:06:02.390 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: and a PhD in public Procurement and anti-corruption law from the University of Nottingham in England. Her research has been cited by the South African Constitutional Court, which is a very big deal. That's a very, very important court in shaping the future of South Africa. 26 00:06:03.420 --> 00:06:26.599 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Prabhat Garg is Optiflios, and he and Vinay have been cornerstones to developing this program. I'm very grateful to the two of them for helping make this seminar series possible. He's an international program management and public procurement expert with about 40 years of experience with multilateral development banks and bilateral development partner agencies, working across the globe in several countries. 27 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:36.009 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Including in the former Soviet region. He worked at the World Bank from 1984 to 2000, where he designed and managed international programs, projects, and procurements 28 00:06:36.010 --> 00:06:50.959 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: in various positions. In 2006, he joined the U.S. federal government working on international public procurement, where he worked in the senior executive service grade levels leading international public procurement practice group that developed policies and managed procurements funded by 29 00:06:50.960 --> 00:07:11.000 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: a U.S. government's foreign aid agency, the Millennium Challenge Corporation, or MCC. Just for those who are from outside the United States, the Senior Executive Service that Prabhat worked in is the most prestigious. It's the elite of the civil service in the U.S. government, so it's a real mark of honor for 30 00:07:11.080 --> 00:07:14.380 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: for Bahta and for other members of the Senior Executive Service. 31 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:19.060 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: So with that, I'm going to turn it over to Sope, and thank you again for joining us, Professor Williams. 32 00:07:20.390 --> 00:07:44.920 Sope Williams: Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon to colleagues that are not in the US, or good evening, wherever you are. First, I have to say thank you, Chris, for inviting me. I'm obviously so glad to be joining you at GW, and I look forward to us, you know, having a great working relationship and having a lot of fun. So, what I want to talk about this morning is I want to talk about a few things that have happened over 33 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:47.510 Sope Williams: over the last, I'll say 18 months. 34 00:07:47.510 --> 00:07:51.029 Sope Williams: In international anti-corruption law and enforcement. 35 00:07:51.030 --> 00:08:00.509 Sope Williams: and the impact that that's having. When Benedetta was giving her remarks, she talked about the fact that, for this session, we're looking at what are the tools that we have 36 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:19.590 Sope Williams: our disposal when procurement doesn't go as planned, when corruption has, you know, is part of the process. And so I want to talk about the tools that we've had, and how those tools have been holding up over the last 18 months, and really what's happening in the global arena. 37 00:08:19.590 --> 00:08:23.169 Sope Williams: So, I'm going to start talking about 38 00:08:23.170 --> 00:08:35.920 Sope Williams: what happened in January 2025, which shocked the international development community, but possibly the international anti-corruption community didn't, recognize the impact that it would have. 39 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:53.979 Sope Williams: So, in January 2025, I think on the 24th of January, President Trump issued an executive order against, USAID. And so it was, a now total… near total freeze on… on all foreign aid. 40 00:08:53.980 --> 00:09:08.970 Sope Williams: And by March, about 83% of USAID's programs had been canceled, involving thousands of contracts. And I think since July of last year, you know, USAID has more or less, 41 00:09:09.170 --> 00:09:33.049 Sope Williams: cease to function. But what is important in the context of anti-corruption enforcement is that a lot of the foreign aid that went through USAID was to support anti-corruption programs. So USAID was funding a lot of NGOs that were doing research in a lot of developing countries. 42 00:09:33.050 --> 00:09:38.240 Sope Williams: Developing tools, to address corruption in public sector and private sector. 43 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:46.320 Sope Williams: to also address things like, like human rights abuses, and things like that. So you had a lot of these NGOs funded by USAID, 44 00:09:46.880 --> 00:09:52.109 Sope Williams: Working in different countries around the world, working even in authoritarian regimes to address 45 00:09:52.110 --> 00:10:12.829 Sope Williams: corruption, address human rights abuses, provide legal services for victims of those regimes. So, the collapse of USAID was, you know, was very loud, very significant, but it had a deeper impact for anti-corruption enforcement. Because, of course, while we had visibility on the executive order. 46 00:10:12.830 --> 00:10:27.250 Sope Williams: addressing enforcement of the FCPA, USAID's work in anti-corruption was a lot of soft power, right? It was work that… that didn't get the headlines, but it was work that was really important in terms of… of, 47 00:10:27.250 --> 00:10:44.980 Sope Williams: of international anti-corruption law. So that was one piece of the puzzle when we can say, international anti-corruption law enforcement began to unravel. Of course, in February of the same year, we then had the executive order, 48 00:10:45.160 --> 00:11:01.709 Sope Williams: in the US, again, from President Trump, directing the Attorney General to pause investigations and enforcement actions under the FCPA. Of course, if you know the history of the FCPA, it was the first domestic law that addressed, 49 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:18.770 Sope Williams: extraterritorial corruption and bribery, and was instrumental in things like the OECD anti-bribery conventions that we have now, and the fact that we now, you know, routinely criminalize foreign bribery. So the FCPA and the US's role in addressing foreign bribery has been… 50 00:11:18.770 --> 00:11:24.029 Sope Williams: Of immense significance to the way the anti-corruption legal framework has shaped up. 51 00:11:24.030 --> 00:11:35.789 Sope Williams: So, anyway, January, February 2025, we have this executive order, asking the Attorney General to pause, enforcement, 52 00:11:36.410 --> 00:11:46.500 Sope Williams: And there was a phrase in the executive order saying that they should stop overexpansive and unpredictable FCA enforcement against American citizens and businesses. 53 00:11:46.650 --> 00:11:58.850 Sope Williams: Saying that that was harming economic, American economic competitiveness and, and, and threatening national security. So, since that executive order, 54 00:11:59.290 --> 00:12:10.700 Sope Williams: the FCPA has, you know, has more or less paused a lot of its enforcement. There was then guidelines issued in June 2025, which basically 55 00:12:10.760 --> 00:12:25.080 Sope Williams: then said what the Attorney General could do under the FCPA, and saying that the FCPA should focus on eliminating cartels and transnational criminal organizations, safeguarding opportunities for U.S. companies. 56 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:35.259 Sope Williams: advancing U.S. national security interests and prioritizing, investigations of serious misconduct, as opposed to quote-unquote routine business practices. 57 00:12:35.260 --> 00:12:40.769 Sope Williams: So the other thing that the guidelines did, apart from listing these four areas where we should have enforcement. 58 00:12:40.770 --> 00:12:52.070 Sope Williams: The other thing that the guidelines did is that they required that the focus should be on individuals and not on… on corporations. So, of course, that, 59 00:12:52.130 --> 00:13:01.459 Sope Williams: has an immense impact on FCPA enforcement. FCPA enforcement was really the main tool that 60 00:13:01.630 --> 00:13:17.560 Sope Williams: the global international community relied on for addressing, you know, foreign bribery. If you had ever done research and looked at some of those enforcement actions, you would find that it wasn't just U.S. companies, it was companies across the globe. 61 00:13:17.620 --> 00:13:21.900 Sope Williams: And many of the countries where there is a problem with, with, with, 62 00:13:21.940 --> 00:13:35.900 Sope Williams: with systemic corruption, where their governments may not be taking action, we found that the SCPA or the US would, you know, would step in and enforce those laws against those countries and against those, companies. So… 63 00:13:35.930 --> 00:13:42.300 Sope Williams: Because of what has happened with these executive orders, there's been a big, 64 00:13:42.610 --> 00:13:47.389 Sope Williams: a shift. And there have been attempts for other 65 00:13:47.440 --> 00:14:08.649 Sope Williams: countries to step in and fill the void. And so what has happened is that Europe and some European countries have tried to respond to this pause on, you know, foreign bribery actions as we knew it. And so in 2025, a number of countries from Europe, the UK, France, Switzerland. 66 00:14:08.650 --> 00:14:13.259 Sope Williams: Announced that they would create a new task force to strengthen collaboration efforts to take 67 00:14:13.260 --> 00:14:28.989 Sope Williams: to tackle international bribery and corruption, and the UK Serious Fraud Office also announced that they would join at the International Intercorruption Coordination center, and that they would seek to enforce the UK Bribery Act, which also has significant 68 00:14:29.130 --> 00:14:46.640 Sope Williams: jurisdiction over foreign bribery, that they would seek to enforce that in cases where the U.S. was not going to do so. So we basically had a few European countries come together and say, okay, we can't allow this gap to continue, and we will try to step in. Of course, we have to take into account the fact that the U.S. had a 69 00:14:47.120 --> 00:15:03.209 Sope Williams: difference… had a bigger scale in terms of resources to address foreign bribery, where, you know, European countries may not be willing to commit those same resources to doing that. So we, we have the UK, the, 70 00:15:03.450 --> 00:15:22.580 Sope Williams: and the other countries intending to step into that gap, we have the UK Serious Frauds Office saying that they would try to prosecute companies where they have breached the UK Bribery Act, and we've had a few investigations under that. What is also interesting is that apart from the 71 00:15:22.580 --> 00:15:47.490 Sope Williams: countries in Europe. We also have, within the U.S, states like California, reminding businesses that irrespective of what the executive order says, that it is still illegal under Californian law to, engage in foreign bribery. And so they have issued statements that violations of the FCPA, even if they're not going to be addressed by the Attorney General, that they might be actionable under California 72 00:15:47.490 --> 00:15:49.610 Sope Williams: unfair competition law. 73 00:15:50.910 --> 00:16:03.870 Sope Williams: And so we've… we've had, so we've had that. We've had other countries like France also issue statements on… on what they would do in terms of addressing foreign bribery, and Switzerland also, 74 00:16:03.920 --> 00:16:10.319 Sope Williams: passed new measures on money laundering and all that. So there has been a global response. So the gap that we envisaged 75 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:29.530 Sope Williams: is there, but it's not, you know, to the extent that we thought. Because, yes, as I said, the FCPA did have an outsized role in addressing foreign bribery. But what has been, I think, particularly problematic is, in terms of the implications for 76 00:16:29.530 --> 00:16:33.210 Sope Williams: You know, Countries that were relying on 77 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:40.529 Sope Williams: USAID funding to address, corruption measures, so we've had, 78 00:16:40.530 --> 00:16:54.030 Sope Williams: nations where they've had fragile democracies and where they have conflicts, which is always a risk for corruption. There's been, you know, those programs have obviously been undermined. 79 00:16:54.030 --> 00:17:19.010 Sope Williams: There have been new discussions between some African countries and the U.S. government that some of the aid for health policy interventions that was funneled through USAID would now be funneled to those countries as budget support. Of course, that causes, you know, raises new risks and new modalities for dealing with that, so we don't really know whether that's going to be better or worse in terms of 80 00:17:19.010 --> 00:17:21.289 Sope Williams: Of risks of anti-corruption. 81 00:17:21.380 --> 00:17:27.340 Sope Williams: And then, of course, as I mentioned earlier, there is going to be, 82 00:17:27.650 --> 00:17:31.039 Sope Williams: There is going to be limitations in what 83 00:17:31.170 --> 00:17:38.140 Sope Williams: the enforcement of foreign bribery laws look like, because while the FCPA had a lot of tools and had been doing this for, you know. 84 00:17:38.890 --> 00:17:56.799 Sope Williams: dozens of years, and have been quite successful at it. The countries in Western Europe that are trying to address this issue now don't have as much experience and don't have the same budget. So that's a challenge. I think what is, 85 00:17:57.300 --> 00:17:58.260 Sope Williams: What… 86 00:17:58.790 --> 00:18:09.379 Sope Williams: hasn't changed at all, and I think we need to take cognizance of that, is the fact that the laws haven't changed. And in terms, especially of FCPA enforcement, we have had, for the last 87 00:18:09.380 --> 00:18:19.160 Sope Williams: I don't know, 30… I don't know, 40 years, a lot of prioritization of some aspects and deprioritization of others. So, this is not… 88 00:18:19.390 --> 00:18:34.460 Sope Williams: totally new. It is more drastic than we've had in the past, but it's not totally new. And as administrations, you know, determine what their focus is going to be, we will always have, you know, different aspects of the FCPA being, 89 00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:44.350 Sope Williams: prioritized and others being deprioritized. But the FCPA remains a valid law. It's not repealed. It can only be repealed by an act of Congress, and of course. 90 00:18:44.610 --> 00:18:50.359 Sope Williams: There are other laws in the U.S. that remain, that are still being enforced, like, you know. 91 00:18:50.360 --> 00:19:05.659 Sope Williams: And of course, as I mentioned already, the UK Bribery Act also has really extensive extraterritorial, jurisdiction. So, there has been a reorientation of international anti-corruption enforcement. 92 00:19:05.820 --> 00:19:18.720 Sope Williams: So the US has… has shifted from being, you know, this global or universal enforcer to being more selective and prioritizing what it believes our… its needs are at this… this… this… 93 00:19:18.800 --> 00:19:37.090 Sope Williams: particular time, USAID has, as one of the most significant funders of anti-corruption, and governance and capacity building, programs in many developing countries, has stopped, so that has severe consequences, and I think that, for me, is actually a bigger problem. 94 00:19:37.090 --> 00:19:49.410 Sope Williams: Because, of course, enforcement is addressing something when there's already been an issue, but the soft, capacity building and governance issues were designed to prevent and mitigate corruption from happening. 95 00:19:49.680 --> 00:20:01.129 Sope Williams: And then, of course, we've seen that Europe is trying to fill the enforcement vacuum, by creating the task force and all that. Of course, it's… there's… there's, 96 00:20:01.690 --> 00:20:17.760 Sope Williams: we haven't had enough time to see how… how successful that is going to be, but it is, I think, a positive development that the global community realizes that I think it was never in anyone's best interest to only have one country taking, 97 00:20:17.760 --> 00:20:32.980 Sope Williams: you know, the main role in addressing an issue that affects everyone, and an issue that is, you know, a networked problem, an issue that is a global problem, an issue that is a cross-border problem. So, in a way, I think 98 00:20:33.560 --> 00:20:52.400 Sope Williams: other countries realizing that they have to, you know, take responsibility for this issue, and they have to put their, you know, their money where their mouth is. I think that is a positive development that has come, out of this. So yes, I will stop by saying it has been challenging, it is, you know, difficult, and… but… 99 00:20:52.730 --> 00:20:56.719 Sope Williams: Maybe it's time that the rest of the world grew up. 100 00:20:57.060 --> 00:20:58.580 Sope Williams: Thank you, I'll stop there. 101 00:21:01.120 --> 00:21:20.080 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Thank you very much, Sope. So, one of the interesting things about being a professor is that we get to be in sort of a trusted space with actors around the world, and you'd, for example, you presented to IFBEC, the International Anti-Corruption Association for large… 102 00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:26.899 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: companies working in the space. So, talking to people who are doing corporate compliance around the world, we asked them. 103 00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:34.479 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Now that the FCPA is being enforced, not at all, but really just being enforced in an incredibly small way regarding organized crime. 104 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:45.340 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: is the… is… now that that's gone, is that changing your compliance posture at all, your compliance structure? And the answer from the folks working in very sophisticated 105 00:21:45.340 --> 00:21:55.679 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: corporate compliance system is, no, actually not at all, because there are all these other laws around the world that have extraterritorial effect. For instance, the Bribery Act in the UK. 106 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:09.420 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: So, what the U.S. has done, which you, as you explained, what the U.S. has essentially done by withdrawing this FCPA enforcement is it's changed the tone from the top. There's still a legal structure that keeps 107 00:22:09.420 --> 00:22:22.179 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: multinationals, for example, from engaging in bribery, but the strong voice from the top is gone. The United States' strong voice has been muted during the Trump administration. So, here's a question I have for you. 108 00:22:22.340 --> 00:22:40.679 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Can others take that… the place of that voice? Could, for example, President Macron in France, or President Ramaphosa in South Africa, could they take the place of the American voice and reinforce the importance of anti-corruption in international procurement? 109 00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:43.840 Sope Williams: Yeah, thanks for that, Chris. I think… 110 00:22:44.120 --> 00:23:00.260 Sope Williams: I think no one country can take the voice. I think it was a mistake, but, I mean, it was just, you know, it's a historical legacy that the US was at the forefront of addressing foreign bribery. So, I think it was a mistake that the US was the main voice, and that should never have been the case. 111 00:23:00.260 --> 00:23:07.710 Sope Williams: And I mean, you know from your studies that corruption is a network's problem, corruption is a global problem, so we shouldn't really be looking for one voice. 112 00:23:07.710 --> 00:23:16.439 Sope Williams: we should be looking for all voices, because if we are serious about addressing it, then it can't be left to one country where things can change, right? You know, politics… 113 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:34.739 Sope Williams: can go in one direction or the other. So I think the fact that the UK has come out strongly, I think France has also come out a little bit strong. Switzerland has come out strong. So I think having more countries, more voices being… condemning foreign bribery and taking action 114 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:40.100 Sope Williams: Against it is possibly what we would need, because then it means that we're… 115 00:23:40.140 --> 00:23:50.380 Sope Williams: relying on a multiplicity of resources and abilities to address corruption, as opposed to one voice. Because if the other countries had… 116 00:23:50.410 --> 00:24:06.609 Sope Williams: had capacitated themselves to address foreign bribery rather than relying on the FCPA, then if there was a shredding of the FCPA, it wouldn't have had the impact that it did have. So I would argue for many voices, and they are coming out, 117 00:24:06.610 --> 00:24:13.150 Sope Williams: And I think we need to have more countries actually saying, well, if this happens in our jurisdiction and our law is, 118 00:24:13.190 --> 00:24:17.439 Sope Williams: And it happens within the jurisdiction of our law, then we will enforce the law. 119 00:24:18.590 --> 00:24:27.680 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: So, last question will bother you, Sope. So, one of the… one of the questions we ask in the U.S. system is, when you… when you have a… you have a bunch of different policemen. 120 00:24:27.710 --> 00:24:43.260 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: trying to… trying to keep people honest. The question is, should the cops cooperate, or is it… is it better for anti-corruption if the… if the policemen don't cooperate? And I have to say, in the federal procurement system in the U.S, there… the cops are… 121 00:24:43.560 --> 00:25:07.160 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: just phenomenally, comically uncooperative. We have the Keystone Cops. The various enforcement agencies oftentimes just don't cooperate with each other. Sometimes they do, but a lot of times they don't, which actually creates more terror in the heart of contractors, because they don't know how the various policemen will come at them, so to speak, and they also… it's very difficult to corrupt or persuade all the policemen at the same time. 122 00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:09.160 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: If the policemen aren't cooperating. 123 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:16.470 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Do you think that anti-corruption actually may work better, Sope, now that we have a multiplicity of enforcement agencies around the world? 124 00:25:17.970 --> 00:25:26.969 Sope Williams: Yes, no, definitely. I think it will work better, and I think, as I said already, that it's better all around if we have everyone 125 00:25:27.370 --> 00:25:40.660 Sope Williams: working towards the same goals when it comes to anti-corruption law and anti-corruption enforcement. And especially when it comes to foreign bribery, right? You're… I mean, by… by default, you're already dealing with cases that involve 126 00:25:40.660 --> 00:26:04.399 Sope Williams: at least two countries. So you do need to have cooperation from the countries that are involved, and because of the nature of global finance, the nature of money laundering, you usually end up with having investigations that span many jurisdictions. So I think the more countries that we can have that are dedicated to addressing foreign bribery, the more countries that we can have pooling their resources to address this. 127 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:06.870 Sope Williams: I think we would have better outcomes all around. 128 00:26:09.140 --> 00:26:14.480 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Thanks very much, Sophie. So I'm gonna, in the interest of time, I'm gonna turn it over to Prabhat. Prabhat, are you with us? 129 00:26:15.810 --> 00:26:17.480 Prabhat Garg: Yeah, hi, good morning, Chris. 130 00:26:17.890 --> 00:26:18.510 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Thank you, Shauna. 131 00:26:18.510 --> 00:26:23.200 Prabhat Garg: And good morning, everybody, for joining us in this interesting seminar. 132 00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:36.909 Prabhat Garg: And thank you, Professor Yukins and colleagues and GW Law for giving us opportunity for pulling all of us together. As a thank you for many of our colleagues on this seminar. I know 133 00:26:37.120 --> 00:26:48.750 Prabhat Garg: Many of them in different time zones are giving up your leisure time. Maybe in some countries you're giving your sleeping time to listen to us. We hope we are making it worth your while. 134 00:26:49.870 --> 00:26:56.969 Prabhat Garg: In this topic, fraud and corruption, as you heard from Professor Yukins and Professor Williams. 135 00:26:57.110 --> 00:27:08.360 Prabhat Garg: It encompasses everything. Contract management, legal framework, evaluation panels, and developing specifications, as we all know in the field. 136 00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:26.090 Prabhat Garg: So, I would rather not talk about the theory or the legal framework. There are more competent people to talk about that. I'm a practitioner, as Chris introduced me as for the last 40 years, first with the World Bank, then with Millennium Challenge Corporation. 137 00:27:26.310 --> 00:27:29.059 Prabhat Garg: So, I would like to draw from… 138 00:27:29.580 --> 00:27:34.830 Prabhat Garg: real-life examples, and Chris, thanks for putting this slide up. 139 00:27:34.930 --> 00:27:46.860 Prabhat Garg: Myself and Vinay Sharma, Mr. Vinay Sharma from former World Bank and African Development Bank Head of Procurement, we have written a book, which is coming out shortly. 140 00:27:46.990 --> 00:27:50.359 Prabhat Garg: This book is full of real-life experiences. 141 00:27:50.690 --> 00:27:56.730 Prabhat Garg: Of the entire international development, not only fraud and corruption, so it will be available soon. 142 00:27:58.060 --> 00:28:01.339 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 143 00:28:02.540 --> 00:28:06.019 Prabhat Garg: during next 15-20 minutes, I would… 144 00:28:06.500 --> 00:28:11.410 Prabhat Garg: I'd like to share my practitioner's perspective on fraud and corruption. 145 00:28:11.790 --> 00:28:17.209 Prabhat Garg: I… and I would like to get away from bringing cops into picture to catch us. 146 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:28.070 Prabhat Garg: We should design… aim to design the systems where systems work themselves without getting cops and courts involved in the corruption and the procurement side, at least. 147 00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:31.769 Prabhat Garg: So, I will share real-life examples. 148 00:28:31.910 --> 00:28:43.279 Prabhat Garg: I will also talk about causes and mitigants of the fraud and corruption, and I would like to leave you with some thoughts on the future of integrity and the fraud and corruption. 149 00:28:43.720 --> 00:28:45.240 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 150 00:28:46.560 --> 00:28:48.410 Prabhat Garg: Oh, sorry, the previous slide. 151 00:28:48.890 --> 00:28:57.909 Prabhat Garg: So, I would like to draw on Albert Einstein's famous quote, as long… we say, so long as they are men, there will be wars. 152 00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:05.979 Prabhat Garg: I would like to adopt that to say so long as there are men, there will be corruption. And man means all genders here. 153 00:29:06.520 --> 00:29:16.609 Prabhat Garg: So corruption is something not that we can eliminate completely, so that'll be an unrealistic goal to eliminate corruption, because that's a human nature. 154 00:29:16.910 --> 00:29:31.310 Prabhat Garg: In my talk, I will share some examples where we can say corruption is not limited to certain countries, or certain positions, or certain institutions. It is limited to human nature. 155 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:35.840 Prabhat Garg: FNC risk, as you'll see, you all know. 156 00:29:36.090 --> 00:29:40.199 Prabhat Garg: will never be zero. We need to see how to manage those risks. 157 00:29:41.670 --> 00:29:43.090 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 158 00:29:45.080 --> 00:29:52.680 Prabhat Garg: I would like to, though, start with something that there is a… we, as practitioners, we face a perception problem. 159 00:29:54.290 --> 00:30:00.040 Prabhat Garg: If it is government procurement, There must be some corruption, that's… 160 00:30:00.450 --> 00:30:04.630 Prabhat Garg: We all assume that. In many countries, it has become the fact of life. 161 00:30:05.470 --> 00:30:10.869 Prabhat Garg: People don't even question that if there's a government procurement, there's… why is there corruption? 162 00:30:11.650 --> 00:30:12.740 Prabhat Garg: So… 163 00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:22.289 Prabhat Garg: As I said, corruption will be there, and corruption happens in all sides. There are buyers, there are bidders, there are funding agencies. 164 00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:24.030 Prabhat Garg: Everybody… 165 00:30:24.310 --> 00:30:37.590 Prabhat Garg: And I don't say that lightly, I've experienced a lot of it myself in my 40 years, but everybody is responsible for having high integrity, everybody responsible for watching against corruption. 166 00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:41.230 Prabhat Garg: And still, there are some… some things happen. 167 00:30:41.610 --> 00:30:49.390 Prabhat Garg: I must say that majority of us, including many of our colleagues here, Work honestly. 168 00:30:49.740 --> 00:31:02.189 Prabhat Garg: Whether they are lawyers, or they are engineers, or they are procurement professionals, they are contract managers, government officers, donor officers, bidders, majority are honest and working upfront. 169 00:31:03.770 --> 00:31:14.490 Prabhat Garg: Procurement and fraud and corruption are most systemic problems. So when the system creates an… gives an opportunity Then. 170 00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.369 Prabhat Garg: Bad actors will take advantage of those opportunities. 171 00:31:18.510 --> 00:31:23.830 Prabhat Garg: So we should think about designing the systems where the opportunities are reduced. 172 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:29.800 Prabhat Garg: And I also want to differentiate that, 173 00:31:30.410 --> 00:31:36.000 Prabhat Garg: Domestic Procurement versus international public procurement, where our book is focused on. 174 00:31:36.260 --> 00:31:48.990 Prabhat Garg: Yes, corruption does exist in international public procurement as well, which refers… in my terminology, I'm referring to the donor-funded programs, multilateral development banks. 175 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:51.410 Prabhat Garg: Or bilateral agencies. 176 00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:53.990 Prabhat Garg: It does exist in IPPs. 177 00:31:54.250 --> 00:32:00.929 Prabhat Garg: It is serious, it is… damages development, And it destroys public trust. 178 00:32:02.320 --> 00:32:08.129 Prabhat Garg: However, I would like to say, based on my experience, that under IPP, 179 00:32:08.230 --> 00:32:23.730 Prabhat Garg: The corruption is not as bad as its critics, harshest critics would like to say, but it is not as good as practitioners like me would like to believe in. So it's not as clean, but not as bad either. 180 00:32:24.170 --> 00:32:33.649 Prabhat Garg: You all must have seen Some advocacy groups claiming 30-50% of the money is lost to corruptions. 181 00:32:35.270 --> 00:32:39.499 Prabhat Garg: It is high, but it is in… under IPP, it is not that high. 182 00:32:40.850 --> 00:32:42.270 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 183 00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:54.530 Prabhat Garg: So, in our book, we demonstrate through real-life experiences Real-life examples. 184 00:32:55.130 --> 00:32:57.580 Prabhat Garg: That corruption exists on all sides. 185 00:32:58.130 --> 00:33:05.460 Prabhat Garg: So, again, it is not limited to certain groups. Like, sometimes when we are talking about corruption, we talk about 186 00:33:06.140 --> 00:33:07.540 Prabhat Garg: Colored bidders. 187 00:33:07.850 --> 00:33:09.860 Prabhat Garg: Or corrupt government officials. 188 00:33:11.150 --> 00:33:15.399 Prabhat Garg: We cannot really classify corruption limited to a certain group. 189 00:33:16.560 --> 00:33:19.079 Prabhat Garg: A strong oversight always helps. 190 00:33:19.350 --> 00:33:31.190 Prabhat Garg: Audit, inspection, as Professor Williams was talking about, independent integrity offices, whistleblower lines, bid challenge systems. All of those help in… 191 00:33:32.710 --> 00:33:35.000 Prabhat Garg: And forcing the requirements? 192 00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:40.299 Prabhat Garg: All of that help in scaring people off, bringing the cops in. 193 00:33:40.930 --> 00:33:50.730 Prabhat Garg: But as procurement professional, my intention is to enforce this or develop the systems where we don't need all that. 194 00:33:51.590 --> 00:33:55.180 Prabhat Garg: We don't… we shouldn't be looking at how many audits we did. 195 00:33:55.660 --> 00:33:59.800 Prabhat Garg: We should be looking at how many successful development outcomes we had. 196 00:34:01.840 --> 00:34:08.329 Prabhat Garg: But we have to recognize, as I said earlier, so long as they are manned, there will be corruption. 197 00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:11.840 Prabhat Garg: Our objective is to improve integrity. 198 00:34:12.070 --> 00:34:13.490 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 199 00:34:17.270 --> 00:34:24.610 Prabhat Garg: So, real-life examples from the book. Again, there is nothing unique about it. I'm sure you have all seen these. 200 00:34:24.909 --> 00:34:32.750 Prabhat Garg: And worse than this, I'm sure, people who are in the procurement field, or contract administration field, or the legal field. 201 00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:36.289 Prabhat Garg: These are our day-to-day lives. We see these things. 202 00:34:37.250 --> 00:34:42.300 Prabhat Garg: However, I'm just putting them here to set the context. 203 00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:51.839 Prabhat Garg: And these are, again, real-life cases, which actually happened, whether that's working on the donor agency sites, World Bank, MCC, I have myself seen these things. 204 00:34:52.310 --> 00:34:59.589 Prabhat Garg: Vehicle procurement in Central Africa. Specification required snow tires for their cars. 205 00:35:00.230 --> 00:35:05.869 Prabhat Garg: Really, the country never has seen snow in last 300 years of their existence. 206 00:35:06.060 --> 00:35:10.019 Prabhat Garg: So there's no snow, obviously, they were trying to direct to somebody. 207 00:35:10.530 --> 00:35:13.870 Prabhat Garg: Individual consultant to be hired. 208 00:35:14.100 --> 00:35:24.399 Prabhat Garg: requirement… Exactly matches number of years, qualifications, past experience for somebody who was just retiring from their job. 209 00:35:24.630 --> 00:35:28.949 Prabhat Garg: So instead of following a sole source requirement and justification. 210 00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:38.620 Prabhat Garg: the buyers or the developers of a specification decided to just have an open competition with the tailored specification. That's a fraud and corruption. 211 00:35:39.630 --> 00:35:42.259 Prabhat Garg: Software Procurement in East Asia. 212 00:35:42.850 --> 00:35:45.210 Prabhat Garg: Sole source and direct contract. 213 00:35:46.450 --> 00:35:52.790 Prabhat Garg: One software which everybody knows, in this case it was an Alton Antivirus program. 214 00:35:53.760 --> 00:36:04.730 Prabhat Garg: Requirement comes with… $30,000 sole source procurement to a specific dealer, with the dealer's letter quoting the price. 215 00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:16.450 Prabhat Garg: and claiming they are the only authorized dealers of Norton in the country, and signed off by the senior government official to say government has been buying this software at this price. 216 00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:23.109 Prabhat Garg: A very simple question raised, and this was, in my case, by the donor agency. 217 00:36:23.620 --> 00:36:28.920 Prabhat Garg: Go on the Google, write a question, are there authorized dealers of this software in this country? 218 00:36:29.090 --> 00:36:33.630 Prabhat Garg: 68 authorized dealers showed up just in the city capital. 219 00:36:35.060 --> 00:36:48.000 Prabhat Garg: Clearly, it was stopped, and when the competition, again, competition, one of the big deterrent to fraud and corruption, competition was enforced. The software was bought for less than $1,000. 220 00:36:48.720 --> 00:36:53.990 Prabhat Garg: So these are the funding agencies that are able to detect and block these cases. 221 00:36:54.220 --> 00:36:58.420 Prabhat Garg: But here it is to show that how things happen. 222 00:36:58.590 --> 00:36:59.990 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 223 00:37:01.680 --> 00:37:16.839 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: So, can I ask you a quick question, Prabhat about this? So, a colleague, Lee Bradley, was the… she was the head of the Office of… the Ethics Office in the Defense Department, the Standards of Conduct, and she also just really expanded a volume they put together of 224 00:37:16.840 --> 00:37:21.999 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Stupid ethical lapses. Dishonest things people have done across the Defense Department. 225 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:40.269 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: for over the years. And she did that not only to make fun of these people, to mock the people who had done things that were wrong, but also to… for the readers, for the audience, to refocus them on what their mission was. Their mission is to serve the Defense Department well. 226 00:37:40.270 --> 00:37:54.280 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: To advance U.S. national security. And so it wasn't just a mocking game, it was a… it was forcing the professionals to refocus on what their true mission is. Should, in your view, should… 227 00:37:54.280 --> 00:38:08.729 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Our colleagues internationally, should they be collecting stories like these, so that they can use them as a talking point, a lesson for procurement officials in their own country to focus on what their true mission is? 228 00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:12.529 Prabhat Garg: Absolutely, I think that's a very good suggestion. 229 00:38:13.090 --> 00:38:20.179 Prabhat Garg: As, as we collect the stories, whether they are convicted stories, or whether they are… 230 00:38:20.410 --> 00:38:24.480 Prabhat Garg: Anticipated stories, or were there suspected stories? 231 00:38:25.140 --> 00:38:28.400 Prabhat Garg: They always help in improving the 232 00:38:28.580 --> 00:38:31.890 Prabhat Garg: If only perception or the reality, both. 233 00:38:32.150 --> 00:38:36.980 Prabhat Garg: And of course, when you put them in what I call Wall of Shame, then, obviously. 234 00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:41.269 Prabhat Garg: Scare some other people from not doing the same thing. 235 00:38:42.020 --> 00:38:49.200 Prabhat Garg: Moving on with some real-life examples, bidders, fraud, and corruption, I'm sure everybody has seen everything possible. 236 00:38:49.560 --> 00:38:59.199 Prabhat Garg: Inflated, fabricated past performance, exaggerated previous assignment rules, falsified CVs and degrees. 237 00:38:59.350 --> 00:39:02.719 Prabhat Garg: Ghost experts who never existed in real life. 238 00:39:02.890 --> 00:39:10.379 Prabhat Garg: Counterfeit bid securities, attempts to bribe the government official evaluation panel, everybody has seen all these things. 239 00:39:10.630 --> 00:39:17.100 Prabhat Garg: So, bidders, as we like to say, corruption schemes are as numerous as the bidders themselves. 240 00:39:17.370 --> 00:39:24.679 Prabhat Garg: Again, as I said earlier, if there's an opportunity, some backed actors will try to take the opportunity. 241 00:39:25.070 --> 00:39:29.210 Prabhat Garg: So… We should try to control the opportunity. 242 00:39:30.550 --> 00:39:31.830 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 243 00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:48.729 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Just a quick question on this Prabhat. So, a lot… so the European Union is moving very aggressively now to encourage cross-border exchange of information, data, between member states, and we're going to see that through open contracting initiatives, we're going to see that internationally, more and more of an exchange. 244 00:39:48.730 --> 00:40:07.910 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: And one of the questions is, where's the first emphasis? Is the first emphasis going to be on contractor qualification and issues of corruption? Will that be the first data that governments share with each other effectively? Do you see… is that a… is that a fair guess, Prabhat, that, in fact, that will be the first area of 245 00:40:07.910 --> 00:40:13.520 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Transnational, inter-country cooperation, questions of qualification and corruption? 246 00:40:15.310 --> 00:40:18.860 Prabhat Garg: That does sound like one of very good starting points. 247 00:40:19.120 --> 00:40:25.300 Prabhat Garg: I would also add that past contractor performance in their countries would become very important also. 248 00:40:25.530 --> 00:40:26.630 Prabhat Garg: So if… 249 00:40:26.910 --> 00:40:35.469 Prabhat Garg: That will scare bad guys that if you miss perform in one country or do corruption in one country, everybody will hear about it. 250 00:40:36.110 --> 00:40:45.580 Prabhat Garg: So if your performance is poor in one place, you not only lose Brussels, you also lose France and other EU members. 251 00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:52.749 Prabhat Garg: So, go back one slide. Oh, yes. Real-life example, donor agency staff. 252 00:40:53.200 --> 00:40:57.080 Prabhat Garg: I say again, don't say that lightly, but it does happen. 253 00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:03.079 Prabhat Garg: Again, when there's an opportunity, somebody will try to take advantage of that. 254 00:41:03.530 --> 00:41:13.090 Prabhat Garg: In one case in Africa Agriculture Project, a whistle… through a whistleblower, it was identified donor agency project manager. 255 00:41:13.650 --> 00:41:20.129 Prabhat Garg: Has… was collaborating with the government officers and the contractors to siphon money 256 00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:23.409 Prabhat Garg: To his relatives in different countries. 257 00:41:23.790 --> 00:41:29.050 Prabhat Garg: And it came out from a whistleblower, and it was so blatant that they were… 258 00:41:29.340 --> 00:41:37.630 Prabhat Garg: Not only cash transfer, they were done through electronic means, so there are full track records of where… who gave the money and where it went. 259 00:41:38.190 --> 00:41:40.540 Prabhat Garg: Of course, there were strong actions taken. 260 00:41:41.370 --> 00:41:51.760 Prabhat Garg: The other one, Middle East Water Well Project in the remote areas, number of… couple of donor agencies got in… got involved. 261 00:41:52.190 --> 00:42:00.280 Prabhat Garg: Funding the digging of water wells in remote areas for drinking, as well as for use of animals. 262 00:42:01.690 --> 00:42:08.540 Prabhat Garg: And another international agency was hired on the payment basis to supervise the implementation. 263 00:42:09.450 --> 00:42:11.909 Prabhat Garg: For one and a half years. 264 00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:18.229 Prabhat Garg: Reports kept coming, wells were completed, sites were visited. 265 00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:23.960 Prabhat Garg: Contractor had completed, whereas contractor invoices are there. 266 00:42:25.290 --> 00:42:30.589 Prabhat Garg: And the site visit reports are there, and donors are dispersing the money. 267 00:42:32.070 --> 00:42:36.599 Prabhat Garg: A whistleblower report to a local newspaper unraveled everything. 268 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:39.530 Prabhat Garg: Literally everything was false. 269 00:42:39.670 --> 00:42:46.060 Prabhat Garg: Every contractor invoice, every site report, Everything was fabricated. 270 00:42:46.490 --> 00:42:50.999 Prabhat Garg: For one and a half years, even… not even a single well was dug there. 271 00:42:51.890 --> 00:42:59.350 Prabhat Garg: It will… obviously, every… Nobody visited the sites where the supervision is very important. 272 00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:05.330 Prabhat Garg: And… Many people were involved in throughout the chain here. 273 00:43:06.390 --> 00:43:12.059 Prabhat Garg: So, these examples… illustrate two important points. One is… 274 00:43:13.030 --> 00:43:16.620 Prabhat Garg: All these site visits are very important. 275 00:43:16.940 --> 00:43:24.879 Prabhat Garg: And second is… this… In finding a fraud and corruption does not require deep investigations. 276 00:43:25.230 --> 00:43:29.779 Prabhat Garg: If you ask a one simple question, that software example. 277 00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:34.550 Prabhat Garg: Do one site visit. Do one stakeholder interview. 278 00:43:35.040 --> 00:43:37.790 Prabhat Garg: It can easily start unraveling there. 279 00:43:38.020 --> 00:43:45.120 Prabhat Garg: So, very simple day-to-day action, which all of us take in our daily life, can help stop fraud and corruption. 280 00:43:46.380 --> 00:44:02.780 Prabhat Garg: But I, again, the central message of my… these examples is that corruption is rarely a failure of one individual or one agency. It is usually a failure of a system. It's a systemic problem which allows safeguards to break down. 281 00:44:04.980 --> 00:44:06.389 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 282 00:44:13.410 --> 00:44:19.050 Prabhat Garg: In summary, or using these examples and other things I've seen, it is… 283 00:44:19.650 --> 00:44:29.820 Prabhat Garg: Again, doing our day-to-day job is where we can do… stop a lot of corruption. Procurement officers insisting on proper documentation. 284 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:36.580 Prabhat Garg: Decision makers, whether procurement officers or their managers, reading the evaluation reports, not just signing them. 285 00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:48.170 Prabhat Garg: Donor government staff conducting site visits. Normal… just go and visit the site and see if there's a well really built or not. Don't just rely on the paper reports. 286 00:44:48.630 --> 00:44:53.339 Prabhat Garg: Evaluators are doing their job honestly declaring their conflict of interest. 287 00:44:53.690 --> 00:44:57.169 Prabhat Garg: Auditors looking at, detailed reports. 288 00:44:57.340 --> 00:45:06.140 Prabhat Garg: bidding community, private sector, really following on their oath of integrity, which is most of the time they sign. Very, very simple steps. 289 00:45:07.340 --> 00:45:08.689 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 290 00:45:13.670 --> 00:45:25.850 Prabhat Garg: About talking about the prevention and these simple steps, I want to draw your attention to one very simple preventive measure done by one of the funding agencies where I work. 291 00:45:27.510 --> 00:45:33.069 Prabhat Garg: In this agency, We put all the teams together, we said. 292 00:45:34.050 --> 00:45:44.909 Prabhat Garg: Program managers, program designers, procurement people, contract managers, government guys, sit down together, and we are tasking you to steal money from this project. 293 00:45:45.530 --> 00:45:50.930 Prabhat Garg: Look from the beginning till end of the pipeline, and tell us how will you steal money. 294 00:45:51.320 --> 00:45:59.480 Prabhat Garg: Initially, of course, very difficult conversation, and meetings were awkward, but very soon, people started understanding that 295 00:45:59.780 --> 00:46:06.219 Prabhat Garg: And where the risks are, And they started developing measures how to stop that risk. 296 00:46:06.560 --> 00:46:22.100 Prabhat Garg: All those findings were converted into risk registers, and those risk registers assigned responsibilities to all of those individuals, project managers, engineers, supervisors, procurement people, how to deal with those risks? 297 00:46:22.430 --> 00:46:25.520 Prabhat Garg: And keep them updating as the risks evolve. 298 00:46:26.030 --> 00:46:29.790 Prabhat Garg: Very simple, but very effective preventive measure. 299 00:46:30.530 --> 00:46:31.950 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 300 00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:44.140 Benedetta Audia: Prabhatan, I just wanted to maybe compliment on what you were saying on the importance on… of, risk mitigating measures. 301 00:46:44.160 --> 00:47:03.020 Benedetta Audia: Especially when it comes to disbursements, just making sure that really no funds are paid in advance, if possible, and that payments are only made once milestones have been reached. And there is documentation that shows that. 302 00:47:03.020 --> 00:47:08.840 Benedetta Audia: It is, I've been involved in the design of many of these programs. 303 00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:19.719 Benedetta Audia: Very often, these are seen as administrative burdens, but I can't emphasize how important these structures are to make sure that 304 00:47:20.180 --> 00:47:23.469 Benedetta Audia: funds are not misappropriated. 305 00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:31.720 Benedetta Audia: And… and at least there are measures, that can be taken, in case this happens. 306 00:47:32.380 --> 00:47:35.119 Prabhat Garg: Thank you, thank you. Very, very important point. 307 00:47:35.730 --> 00:47:37.150 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 308 00:47:41.310 --> 00:47:52.449 Prabhat Garg: So, if today somebody asks me what is one important thing which will help in avoiding procurement, fraud, and corruption during the procurement process? 309 00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:58.410 Prabhat Garg: I would say it is not a fear of audit, I would say it's not a fear of being arrested. 310 00:47:59.200 --> 00:48:13.419 Prabhat Garg: It's a competition. The more we increase the competition, the less incentives will be there, the less opportunities will be there on the bidder's side to influence the decision, on the buyer's side to gain favors. 311 00:48:14.450 --> 00:48:21.020 Prabhat Garg: Then both sides will… because you don't know when you have very wide competition who is going to compete. 312 00:48:21.410 --> 00:48:25.849 Prabhat Garg: So, it will take discretion away from the decision makers. 313 00:48:26.130 --> 00:48:33.359 Prabhat Garg: And then procurement people, of course, have to stay on top of that, so competition is one of the strongest anti-corruption tools. 314 00:48:34.610 --> 00:48:35.959 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 315 00:48:41.090 --> 00:48:47.160 Prabhat Garg: AI, obviously, will help us in due time when it develops, we'll talk about it a little later. 316 00:48:48.750 --> 00:48:50.099 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 317 00:48:58.340 --> 00:48:59.530 Prabhat Garg: So… 318 00:49:00.060 --> 00:49:09.580 Prabhat Garg: There are… sorry, can we go back two slides? I… I missed that part. So, there are three integrity challenges coming up with the… in the current world. 319 00:49:12.010 --> 00:49:17.530 Prabhat Garg: It is… No, the slide which we talked about climate finance, please. 320 00:49:17.790 --> 00:49:20.160 Prabhat Garg: So… In the… 321 00:49:20.350 --> 00:49:30.299 Prabhat Garg: The climate finance, where a lot of funding is going right now. The term used is greenwashing, where a lot of fake claims are there. We need to watch out for things. 322 00:49:30.700 --> 00:49:32.839 Prabhat Garg: About the climate finance. 323 00:49:33.290 --> 00:49:38.119 Prabhat Garg: Then there, of course, a lot of digital systems are coming up in procurement. 324 00:49:38.570 --> 00:49:40.240 Prabhat Garg: Very important. 325 00:49:40.610 --> 00:49:43.129 Prabhat Garg: They produce very good safeguards. 326 00:49:43.310 --> 00:49:49.959 Prabhat Garg: They improve the efficiency of the procurement system, but of course, they improve the vulnerability. 327 00:49:50.410 --> 00:49:56.299 Prabhat Garg: So, as we know, digital systems can be hacked, distal systems can be manipulated as well. 328 00:49:56.780 --> 00:50:03.880 Prabhat Garg: So, as procurement professionals, we have to watch out for those things. And third is artificial intelligence. 329 00:50:04.680 --> 00:50:10.130 Prabhat Garg: So, on artificial intelligence, Of course. 330 00:50:10.500 --> 00:50:14.959 Prabhat Garg: Let's, go back to, Chris, to artificial intelligence slide. 331 00:50:15.240 --> 00:50:19.400 Prabhat Garg: AI in procurement has become the buzzword of the day, as we know. 332 00:50:20.200 --> 00:50:30.589 Prabhat Garg: Past trend analysis, past pricing analysis, engaging with the market, as Matteo said on the first day is very important. AI helps in that also. 333 00:50:31.170 --> 00:50:36.720 Prabhat Garg: As well as, it generative AI can give you the future, also. 334 00:50:37.080 --> 00:50:49.389 Prabhat Garg: But there are limitations right now for AI in procurement. AI is fully dependent on the data that is fed into the LLMs, the large models. 335 00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:59.859 Prabhat Garg: And data, especially in MDV procurement right now, is a little too fragmented, and also the questionable quality in some cases. 336 00:51:00.110 --> 00:51:06.699 Prabhat Garg: So, therefore, the data quality has to improve for AI to be really reliable. 337 00:51:07.080 --> 00:51:14.319 Prabhat Garg: Then the second thing in the AIC procurement is that they can never, never replace humans. 338 00:51:14.690 --> 00:51:21.489 Prabhat Garg: But human development needs to take place, which right now is not happening in most organ… or many organizations. 339 00:51:21.680 --> 00:51:30.499 Prabhat Garg: Humans have to understand how the outcome of our AI model has been generated, which is right now not understood that well. 340 00:51:31.540 --> 00:51:48.029 Prabhat Garg: When we are doing procurement, we have to be ready for challenges from the losing bidders. Can the AI outcome really help us develop a bid challenge system which can be defended in a code? We are not there yet. Hopefully, we'll reach there one day. 341 00:51:48.700 --> 00:51:59.299 Prabhat Garg: So AI in Procurement will help the procurement professionals improve their efficiency, give them past trends, but they will never be replacing the humans. 342 00:51:59.500 --> 00:52:05.319 Prabhat Garg: AIs cannot do your site interviews. AI cannot do stakeholder analysis. 343 00:52:05.590 --> 00:52:08.030 Prabhat Garg: AI does not do site visits. 344 00:52:08.530 --> 00:52:10.530 Prabhat Garg: Humans will have to do that. 345 00:52:10.690 --> 00:52:19.349 Prabhat Garg: So therefore, AI and procurement will be strengthening the procurement system, it will not be replacing the human systems. 346 00:52:19.650 --> 00:52:20.959 Prabhat Garg: Next slide, please. 347 00:52:23.980 --> 00:52:36.799 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: If I could just throw a quick thing in here. So, a big problem in corruption is the information asymmetry between the government and its contractors, and AI can start to fix that, so… 348 00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:52.560 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Last week, a funny story is that I was looking at a… I was lecturing about a certain procurement, and I looked at the specifications, and I said, oh, these specifications are awfully… awfully tight. They… I… I can't believe… I said, let's just put these specifications through AI. 349 00:52:52.560 --> 00:53:11.860 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: And within 10 seconds, it turned out the specifications identified a specific product in the world. One product! I thought, oh my gosh, this is a new way to use AI to deal with the problem we've been dealing with, you know, for millennia in procurement. How do you tell if, in fact, the specifications are wired? 350 00:53:12.190 --> 00:53:14.919 Prabhat Garg: Yeah, yes, absolutely. 351 00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:22.340 Prabhat Garg: So, in the interest of time, I know I have run out of my time. We can jump to the future of Procurement slide. 352 00:53:25.170 --> 00:53:34.130 Prabhat Garg: how do we know that our anti-corruption strategies are working? Traditionally, as Professor Williams and Professor Yukins were talking. 353 00:53:34.280 --> 00:53:40.439 Prabhat Garg: About investigations, about sanctions, how many companies have been debugged worldwide? 354 00:53:40.740 --> 00:53:45.300 Prabhat Garg: Yes, there are important statistical measures. 355 00:53:45.530 --> 00:53:48.329 Prabhat Garg: But as procurement professionals. 356 00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:59.169 Prabhat Garg: For us, the Mesa should be different. Our indicator should be different. Our indicator should be how many more firms are participating. Are we increasing competitiveness? 357 00:53:59.600 --> 00:54:07.800 Prabhat Garg: How many first-time bidders are getting encouraged to participate in government bidding, and not shying away because all government procurement is corrupt? 358 00:54:07.990 --> 00:54:21.279 Prabhat Garg: Are we shortening the procurement cycle by using digital platforms or by using AI? Are we getting better quality bids, more market engagement? Are we able to understand the market? Does the market understand us? 359 00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:29.410 Prabhat Garg: And are we having successful con- contract implementation? Are we really making sure that wells are dug on the ground? 360 00:54:30.070 --> 00:54:33.050 Prabhat Garg: Technology cannot do it, we'll have to do it. 361 00:54:33.650 --> 00:54:42.960 Prabhat Garg: Can we have the, really, all these things as a procurement system, which include legal framework, which includes evaluation panels, contract management system? 362 00:54:43.130 --> 00:54:48.649 Prabhat Garg: Can we have a system at some point, hopefully not at least in my lifetime. 363 00:54:48.890 --> 00:54:53.400 Prabhat Garg: Where public will stop worrying about corruption in public procurement. 364 00:54:53.560 --> 00:54:55.330 Prabhat Garg: But they will start 365 00:54:56.230 --> 00:55:04.249 Prabhat Garg: Being surprised when they see a news of corruption in the newspaper, because they are not used to seeing corruption in public procurement. 366 00:55:04.500 --> 00:55:08.189 Prabhat Garg: That is what… that is the day we should be striving for. 367 00:55:08.630 --> 00:55:13.380 Prabhat Garg: And one day our systems can be there, they are not there right now. 368 00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:18.009 Prabhat Garg: A final reflection, allow me to conclude where I begin. 369 00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.959 Prabhat Garg: So long as they are men, there will be corruption. 370 00:55:22.230 --> 00:55:26.540 Prabhat Garg: So, achieving zero corruption is an unrealistic goal. 371 00:55:26.820 --> 00:55:33.280 Prabhat Garg: Our objective should be to strengthen the systems where opportunities for corruption are reduced. 372 00:55:33.580 --> 00:55:43.080 Prabhat Garg: And incentives are taken away where the people, bidders, buyers, and donors, they all strive toward the same goal. 373 00:55:45.170 --> 00:55:58.939 Prabhat Garg: To increase… and the goals are increasing transparency, strengthen institution, encourage genuine competition, improve accountability, and ultimately to make integrity as a norm of public procurement. 374 00:55:59.910 --> 00:56:07.429 Prabhat Garg: So, closing… in my closing remarks, I want to leave you with… with one thought, a few thoughts. 375 00:56:08.060 --> 00:56:16.580 Prabhat Garg: Integrity is not created by investigations. It's created by thousands of honest people like you and me who are working in the field. 376 00:56:16.770 --> 00:56:21.150 Prabhat Garg: Making day-to-day decisions honestly and working in detail. 377 00:56:22.540 --> 00:56:36.470 Prabhat Garg: Future of anti-corruption is not merely fighting corruption. It should be to increase the integrity in the systems that we catch the bad guys before it happens. Catching them after it happens is already too late. 378 00:56:37.450 --> 00:56:41.120 Prabhat Garg: Good procurement systems should not depend on good people. 379 00:56:41.640 --> 00:56:45.500 Prabhat Garg: People are not good. As we know, this is a human nature. 380 00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:49.450 Prabhat Garg: Good systems should depend on 381 00:56:49.750 --> 00:57:03.579 Prabhat Garg: Assuming people are human, and human nature will remain human nature. But how can we reduce opportunity for misconduct, and make integrity as the first choice for the humans who operate in this field? 382 00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:05.380 Prabhat Garg: Thank you very much. 383 00:57:05.490 --> 00:57:07.479 Prabhat Garg: Thank you, Professor Yukins. 384 00:57:09.410 --> 00:57:11.799 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Thank you, Prabhat. I really appreciate it. 385 00:57:11.830 --> 00:57:30.910 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: As noted before, the slides will be posted, and the slides include Prabhat's email address, if you want to contact him about a discount on his forthcoming book. So, just want to close by talking about the major procurement reform efforts that we've been reviewing this week, the UNSA trial efforts, the EU efforts. 386 00:57:30.910 --> 00:57:48.489 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: the U.S. efforts, what's going on in South Africa. And in South Africa, for example, the new South African regulations that are under review right now call for, explicitly call for a risk management system to be built into large construction projects. 387 00:57:48.750 --> 00:58:07.709 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: what you're seeing, once you take a step back, once you look at all these various procurement reform efforts going on internationally, it's really a step beyond what the OECD report, which is… which is, there's an image of here, and is also on the Public Procurement International page. The OECD report from June of 2023 388 00:58:07.710 --> 00:58:10.890 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Talked about public procurement as a risk management effort. 389 00:58:10.890 --> 00:58:24.079 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: And when you see public procurement in those terms, that it's not a matter of yes-no rules, but it's a matter of a highly professionalized risk management, then you begin to see the integration between anti-corruption rules and good procurement rules. 390 00:58:24.080 --> 00:58:38.469 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Good Procurement rules are about risk management, anti-corruption is about risk management, and all the pieces start to fit together, and that's a… that's a very important insight that these various reform system… reform efforts running in parallel, offer us. 391 00:58:38.530 --> 00:58:48.000 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: I just want to close. We had… I've been reflecting over the last few days why we… a colleague asked, why did you do this series, Chris? Why did you do this series on international development? 392 00:58:48.000 --> 00:59:06.499 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: given all the cutbacks that have been in international aid, especially in the U.S, but in the last couple days, we saw them, for example, in the UK as well. Why did you… why did you do this? And I joked, I said, I like to play baseball in the rain. Playing baseball in the rain is uniquely difficult, but it improves your skills. 393 00:59:06.500 --> 00:59:11.539 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: And that was kind of a silly answer. I think what we learned over the last few days is that 394 00:59:11.620 --> 00:59:31.409 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Even with the massive cuts in international development that have come, what you've seen from the professionals that have been presenting over the last few days, what you've seen from our audience members that have been participating through the chat, what we see every day in the classroom from our students and from our colleagues internationally. 395 00:59:31.410 --> 00:59:34.330 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Is a tremendous commitment to international development. 396 00:59:34.330 --> 00:59:52.780 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Everybody who's involved in this field understands that what's at stake is men, women, and children in individual countries, and we have to hold the community together and build capacity in that community to continue to serve those people. So the funding, the cut in funding is not irrelevant. 397 00:59:52.780 --> 01:00:03.099 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: But it's not at the core. The core here is the commitment that all these professionals hold and hold very dearly. So with that, I want to sign off and thank all the panelists. They're wonderful. Any last words, Benedetta? 398 01:00:03.100 --> 01:00:14.600 Benedetta Audia: Yes, actually, thank you, thank you, Chris. I just wanted to add to what you were saying about the importance of international development despite the current funding challenges. 399 01:00:14.600 --> 01:00:24.339 Benedetta Audia: There are still thousands of opportunities out there. I think it's important to highlight this, despite the cuts, and also, 400 01:00:24.640 --> 01:00:43.829 Benedetta Audia: Many of the funding cuts affect the staff costs, but there's still thousands of projects that are being implemented all over the world. And again, I just wanted to, as I always do, put things in perspective. Let's just remember the impact that international development has 401 01:00:43.830 --> 01:01:01.270 Benedetta Audia: on people's lives, and the fact that these rules are not abstract, they are extremely important, because when a project is well implemented, it can really save lives. And so, it is a responsibility on all of us professors, practitioners. 402 01:01:01.630 --> 01:01:12.720 Benedetta Audia: Students, those who are interested in the field, to make sure that the system is appropriate for the objectives it is intended to reach. 403 01:01:12.940 --> 01:01:26.800 Benedetta Audia: So I really hope that this, series, helped, everyone, just remember why this is such a very important field of law, and how, you know, 404 01:01:26.990 --> 01:01:31.469 Benedetta Audia: how impactful it is. So thanks again. 405 01:01:32.130 --> 01:01:34.000 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Very wisely said, Ms. Audia. Thank you. 406 01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:34.690 Benedetta Audia: Beautiful. 407 01:01:34.970 --> 01:01:36.690 Christopher Yukins / GW Law: Thank you all. Have a good day. Take care. 408 01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:39.450 Sope Williams: Bye, everyone, thank you!